7 replies to this topic

[Zzzptm]

I’ve just finished watching Robert Fisk’s “Lies, Misreporting, and Catastrophe in the Middle East.” I truly enjoy Fisk’s reporting and comments on how others report. He is refreshingly honest and does his best to avoid using the language of power that propagates oppression and violence. He refuses to call problems “issues” or a breakdown in talks a “peace process.”

So here’s the short version of his speech and discussion: There is no peace for Israel. There will be no Palestinian state, and unless Israel actually engages in a wholesale genocide on the level of the Turkish genocide of Armenia in 1915, the Palestinians will remain in the area to antagonize Israel. Israeli soldiers will never be sure which Palestinians are violent and which ones are not, so the violence against civilians will continue. Likewise, Palestinian bombers will take lives of soldiers as well as children: it will be a tragedy, a catastrophe on both sides, with innocents of all stripes caught in between.

Will the Israelis subject the Palestinians to a full-on genocide? I think that’s a likely event, given that he USA supports Israel without question or hesitation. The USA already turns a blind eye to Israel’s nuclear weapons. The USA already does not press Israel to be specific about where its eastern border actually is. The USA already has a reporting network that refuses to be honest about the suffering there, not allowing photos and eyewitness reporter evidence to appear without Israel’s official denial of said evidence, as blatant as a Turk saying there never was an Armenian genocide.

Here’s where I’ll make a departure from Mr. Fisk and extend a prediction of events in Israel. The genocide there will not be of the hurried, Nazi variety. The Nazis knew they were running out of time after they failed to take down Russia in 1941. The Israelis know that time is against them, but in a matter of decades, not years. They can afford either the Russian or Republica Srpska approach. They can squeeze out the Palestinians, demand a blockade against them while they continue to receive arms, and drive them from their lands. There are 6 million Palestinians outside of Israel and the Occupied Territories. There are also 6 million Armenians outside of Turkey, so there’s a parallel for you.

Palestinian violence will continue as long as Israeli violence is directed against them. If the Palestinians ever looked set to take Israel by storm, Israeli nuclear weapons are likely buried underneath their cities, ready to detonate and deny the Palestinians those targets, just as the Apartheid South African government was prepared to do the same in the event of an ANC military victory. If Israel ever became the victim of a nuclear attack itself, it would make other people in Syria, Iran, and Lebanon victims as well.

There is no good guys vs. bad guys in this case. I am of the belief that the wicked destroy the wicked and, being wicked, see nothing wrong in slaughtering innocents caught in the crossfire. I don’t see any way out of this unless the USA unilaterally abandons Israel as an ally, which is not going to happen. The USA made a mistake in creating the state of Israel and, as an empire, can not withdraw that support without losing its power. Therefore, the USA’s will to empire has entrapped it in a violent snare from which it refuses to escape.

In Tarkovsky’s film “Stalker,” the main character says that weakness and flexibility are signs of life – the weak ask for help and the flexible bend in the face of forces that would otherwise destroy them. The character then said that strength and inflexibility always go with death. The strong and inflexible stand firm, sure that they can face down the very thing that is guaranteed to destroy them. Their strength and inflexibility blinds them to the dangers in their face. Sadly, both the USA and Israel are strong and inflexible.

[FOX]

Zzzptm, you must really stop watching documentaries by the leftist media. It's going to rot your brain.

I use this as a source when correcting various points in your article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

1) The UK created Israel after taking the Vichy France colonies of Lebanon and Syria in WW2. Israeli dependence began to be phased in as early as 1949 during the decolonization period. The USA is a fairly recent ally, not the creator.

2) Israel has actually started only 1 war, the Six Days War, which was in response to Egypt denying them access to the Suez Canal. This was actually illegal on Egypt's part, as per terms with the British Government at the time. It would be like Panama denying Mexico access to the Panama Canal in more modern times, so I feel that war was warranted.

3) Most of Israel's "land-grabs" have come in the aftermath of the Arab Invasion in 1973, when Egypt, Palestine, and Syria all launched a coordinated invasion of Israel during a Jewish religious holiday. Israel's terms for the return of the lands were that the nations involved had to formally recognize Israel as a state- Egypt obliged, and their land was returned. Syria did not; Palestine did not. As a result, Syria never regained control of the Golan Heights, and Palestine has remained a landless state. In the most recent peace talks, Israel offered 50% of their landmass for recognition of Israel as a nation- Palestine refused. They wanted all of it. How can we expect Israel to cave to annexation demands??

4) The most recent "violence" has been in retaliation to border violence and missile attacks by Hezbollah, Hamas, and the PLO- all of whom hide in the lawless south of Lebanon. The Lebanese army is simply overwhelmed in the area, so Israel must act to protect its own citizenship. I would ask you this, what would you expect the USA to do if the Mexican Drug Cartel launched missiles into Los Angeles? I'd expect one firm show of force. Israel is doing the same- showing they will not tolerate terrorist attacks on its cities. I cannot blame them for such.

In the USA, Western Europe, and other places throughout the world, we cannot begin to imagine living in a region where every neighbor wants us dead and erased for no other reason than our religion and way of life. This is the cruel reality that Israel and her citizens must wake up to every morning and go to sleep to every evening. They may "over-react" about something or another, but can you really blame them? After all, how did the USA react to the Cuban Missile Crisis, keeping in mind that only lasted a couple of weeks?

Also, howdy friend. It's been a while. How are you?

[Zzzptm]

Rather than go with a bulleted response, I'll just make a unified reply.

The USA was behind the creation of Israel in the UN. While England and France provided a good deal of material support for Israel in the lead-up to the 1956 Suez Crisis, the US took over a more formal support role in the wake of that. But Israel exists today largely because of US backing. Our very refusal to acknowledge the existence of Israeli nuclear weapons allows us to continue to provide them with extensive military aid.

Whatever Israel's justification for taking land - and, by the way, the invasions of Lebanon were other wars Israel started, as well as their bombing of the Osirak reactor in Iraq - they have done so in violation of international law and show no sign of relinquishing those lands. Again, US support makes that possible. They've got a huge border wall around Israeli settlements in those lands, showing just how permanent they see their acquisition of those territories.

Israel has not offered Palestine anything along the lines of 50%. It's more like 10% of the occupied territories, themselves a truncated version of the Palestinian state that was supposed to exist in 1948. Yes, the Palestinians have been horribly betrayed by the Syrians, Jordanians, and Egyptians when they seized Palestinian territory in the aftermath of the 1947-48 war. But the Palestinians have also been betrayed by the Israelis. There are no real peace talks. They are dictating sessions where Israel creates some sort of fiction, the Palestinian leaders refuse to buy into it out of sheer bloody-mindedness and another Israeli settler opens fire on Palestinian civilians while a Palestinian freedom-fighter detonates a bomb in an Israeli pizza parlor.

It's not that one side is right and the other wrong. It's that one side is made to be right by virtue of US arms and the other side is made to be right by ignoring its own atrocities and playing up those of its opponent.

Given that Israel has the stronger position, it will be the party to do the bad neighbor bit, as you described in your last paragraph. Let's not have any illusions - the feeling is mutual among the extremists of both the Israelis and the Palestinians. But the Israelis cannot claim a moral high ground. Israeli policies have done and will do to the Palestinians exactly what they say the Palestinians threaten to do to them. It's a terrible reason and I don't have to agree to it even if my government makes it possible.

Because the Middle East is seen as a region of vast geologic resources, its people are all secondary to the acquisition of that mineral wealth. That's the real tragedy.

[Zzzptm]

Also hello.

How is it you're a member and a foreign guest?

[FOX]

I'm special. lol

You're largely right in many respects- both sides are equally guilty, but I still go back to the initial attacks. Israel has woken up to surprise attacks on more than one occasion, and they have come within 20 miles of being completely occupied and destroyed; therefore, I tend to back our Government in their commitment to the Israeli's safety and security.

I disagree largely with the charge that this particular incident is about oil, basically the only resource the middle east has. Iraq, okay, that is probably at least partially about oil, but Isreal/Palestine has no oil. Israel's only real resource is their human resource, as they have a thriving technology sector. This is more about the USA supporting Democracies around the world, even when there's very little gain to them in the short term. Vietnam and Korea are other examples.

I would like to charge that Israel's wars in Lebanon are not exactly pre-emptive. They have been in response to aggressive actions on the parts of Hezbollah and Hamas, who have taken up refuge there. I actually blame Lebanon for not having expelled the "terrorist organizations," as the UN describes them.

[Zzzptm]

Heh... and what then of Israel's possession of nuclear weapons? If the US fessed up to what is one of the worst-kept secrets in the world, we wouldn't be able to ship them aid. Yet, Iran tinkers with the centrifuges, and we're discussing severe retaliation.

[Owned-You]

Zzzptm, on 05 January 2011 - 10:30 PM, said:

Heh... and what then of Israel's possession of nuclear weapons? If the US fessed up to what is one of the worst-kept secrets in the world, we wouldn't be able to ship them aid. Yet, Iran tinkers with the centrifuges, and we're discussing severe retaliation.

Iran is controlled by a regime that is against US affairs. It also is in prime range for causing problems in the Persian Gulf, a primary shipping lane for our oil. Currently, Oil reserves around the world are being depleted and the worlds production has surpassed peak-flow; meaning production of oil will not increase but steadily begin to decrease. Causing a chain of events, such as gas prices rising tenfold, furthermore states will begin taking serious military measures to preserve whatever remaining sources of oil are left. The Persian Gulf being a center of oil transportation, is thus why Iran must be handled. Israel is simply a means of security for the west; not simply the US but Western society in general which is reliant on a flow of oil through the Persian Gulf.

You really should read about Peak Flow Zzzptm; you'll find it fascinating as it opens up your eyes towards certain measures governments are taking around the world that would otherwise seem pointless.

[Zzzptm]

Problem is, if the US turns a blind eye to Israeli nukes, it undermines our ability to carry respect for our decisions elsewhere, forcing us to rely upon very expensive military force to accomplish our FP goals.